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Jul 26 08 12:50 PM

What has the bible prophesied about Turkey?



Gog Magog



Table of Nations




Locations

The terms found in Ezekiel 38 that must be considered are (as in KJV) Gog, Magog, Rosh, Meshech, Tubal (verse 1), Persia, Ethiopia, Libya (verse 5), Gomer, and Togarmah (verse 6). Of these, some are easily identifiable. The more obvious nations will be treated first then proceeding to the more difficult.




Libya, Persia, Ethiopia

Libya (Put) remains today, bearing the same name, lying just west of Egypt. Persia, also remaining to the present, is now known as Iran. Biblical Ethiopia (Cush, KŠ) is not the Ethiopia of today but rather the land just to the south of Egypt, Northern Sudan.


Togarmah

Togarmah (TGRM) presents only a cilantro more difficulty. Togarmah was a descendant of Noah through Japheth then Gomer (Gen.10:1-3). He is know to Assyrian records as Tilgarimmu (TLGRM). The inserted "L" is not uncommon and, more than likely, was silent. Tilgarimmu was a city state in Eastern Anatolia (Asia Minor, modern Turkey), more specifically, as Ryrie states, "the southeastern part of Turkey near the Syrian border." This identification is generally acknowledged by all.

Gomer

Gomer (GMR) has often been mistaken to refer to Germany because of a supposed similarity of linguistic construction. This position has two serious errors. One is that the "R" and "M" are reversed. Ezekiel wrote of GMR not GRM. The reversal is unwarranted linguistically. Furthermore, this similarity and inversion is based upon a comparison of Ezekiel's GMR with a modern English (from Latin) designation for Deutschland. Clearly, the similarity is only superficial. These two errors rule out, absolutely, any possible identification of Gomer with Germany.

However, GMR is well known to the ancient world as Gimarrai (GMR) of north central Asia Minor (Cappadocia). These people are also known as the Cimmerians (KMR, note the change in gutturals from "G" to "C"). This seems to be the simplest, most obvious interpretation.

other source

The Cimmerians (Greek: Κιμμέριοι, Kimmerioi) were ancient equestrian nomads who, according to Herodotus, originally inhabited the region north of the Caucasus and the cook Sea. (wiki)


other source

"The name Caucasus means "Gog's Fort, and this region from the cook to Caspian Sea, inclusive of Turkey, is the ancestral homeland of the people group which Scripture says Gog will be a ruler and warlord."(islamic website)




Rosh

The identification of Rosh (RŠ) presents some difficulty. Some understand it to be a proper noun referring to Russia rather than as a simple noun or adjective, "head" or "chief" (KJV), which is its normal meaning.

Although this interpretation may be allowable on grammatical grounds, it suffers from several problems. The first is that there is absolutely no place on earth known by this name, Rosh. Of all the occurrences of Meshech and Tubal (MŠK and TBL) in Biblical and non-Biblical writings, they are never associated with a place called Rosh, as the translation "prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal" would suggest.

There are linguistic problems here as well. As Unger admits, "Linguistic evidence for the equation [of Rosh with Russia] is confessedly only presumptive." The first problem is that the similarity is in sound only, not in consonantal configuration. Notice it is Rosh (RŠ) not Rus (RS). Furthermore, the problem encountered earlier, the supposed similarity is based on a comparison with a much more modern word. The term "Russia" comes from a late eleventh-century A.D. Viking word "Rus" (RS; again notice the difference in consonants). Reading modern words and spellings into ancient Semitic terminology is to ignore all known linguistic norms.

Since there is no place named Rosh associated with Meshech or Tubal, and since the attempted equation of it with modern Russia is obviously fallacious, it is easiest to understand both "chief" (rosh) and "prince" as related appositionally and used in reference to Meshech and Tubal: "chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" (KJV). This is also the reading of the Targum, Aquila, and the Vulgate.


Meshech

Meshech (MŠK) is often mistaken for the Modern Russian city of Moscow, capitol and largest city of the Soviet Union. Again, this identification, as even Ryrie admits, is unfounded also. The problems are similar to those associated with the identification of Gomer with Germany. First of all, the Š is changed to S. This again is unwarranted linguistically. Furthermore, the similarity is based upon a comparison of MŠK with the English designation Moscow; the Russian word is Moskva (MSKV) and is less similar still.

However, Mushki (MŠK) of central and western Asia Minor, known in the classics (Homer, etc.) as Phrygia, fits very well. These people were well known to Ezekiel, and this seems clearly the easier interpretation.


Tubal

Tubal (TBL) is commonly identified with the Russian city of Tobol'sk. Although this is allowable linguistically, it is not the best hermeneutically. Ezekiel knew nothing of Tobol'sk (or Moscow or Germany, for that matter); it did not exist. He was, however, well acquainted with Tabal (TBL) of Eastern Asia Minor (and Gimarrai and Mushki) of central and western Asia Minor). Granted, God could have revealed Tobol'sk (and Moscow and Germany) to the ancient prophet, but to assume so when Tabal was well known to him is unjustified apart from Biblical warrant. If a man in New York, for example, speaks of Manhattan, he would not want anyone to assume that he is speaking of a Manhattan, Kansas; much less would he want anyone to interpret his words as referring to a Manhattan somewhere else in the world of which he is unaware! Similarly, to assume a place unknown to the prophet (Tobol'sk) when clear options are available is both hermeneutically and exegetically untenable. Tabal is clearly to be preferred.



Gog

Gog is merely an official title or general designation for any enemy of God's people. This interpretation is based on the Septuagint rendering of several Kingly names in the Old Testament. It is most probable that Gog is a person, but geographical identification is not given.

Magog

Magog, a descendant of Noah through Japheth (Gen. 10:1-2), presents the most difficulty. Those who see it as Russia appeal to Josephus who said "Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians," who lived north and northeast of the cook Sea. The fact of the matter, however, is that nothing is known about Magog--nothing. Josephus' guess may be as good as any, but the place is as yet unidentified. The appeal to Gesenius is impressive, but it must be remembered that Gesenius was a great lexicographer and grammarian, not an authority on ancient history. His statement was but a guess also; in fact, it is highly probable that Josephus was Gesenius' source for this information. Furthermore, though the Scythians are of the Japhetic line, they are believed by historians to be descendants of Gomer through Ashkenas; this is not true of Magog. To identify Magog as the Scythians is without support from historical anthropology.

Although Magog cannot be identified specifically, it seems that Scripture does give a clue at least to its general vicinity. First, "Gog" is known to be an Anatolian name. Further, if Meshech and Tubal have been identified correctly and are in Asia Minor, Magog must be a part of Asia minor as well since "they [Meshech and Tubal] lived in the neighborhood of Magog." Ezekiel 38:2 states that Gog, who is the "chief prince of Meshech and Tubal," is "of the land of Magog." If Gog is prince of Meshech and Tubal and lives in the land of Magog, it seems reasonable that Magog is in close proximity.

In summary, the Scythians were a people other than Magogites, and Magog is not able to be specifically identified, unless it is a general reference to the land of Asia Minor.

and another source says

"Magog, is the “head” of land of Meshech and Tubal. We have already seen that Meschech and Tubal are located in modern day Turkey. Thus it would be foolish to assume that Magog as their “head” is in some other distant region or nation."

and another says


Magog can mean more than one thing. However, the context of what Magog was and what it meant when Ezekiel was written, leads me to see Magog as referring to Lydia. Beyond this, the specific phrasing of Ezekiel 38’s wording only makes sense if Magog is Lydia.

“Gog of Magog chief head over Meshek and Tubal.”

If Magog were far off from Asia Minor, then this phrase makes no sense. However if one reads Magog to be Lydia, which historical and contextual indicators point to, then the phrase makes perfect sense because we know that Meshek and Tubal were in Asia Minor. Thus Magog as their head makes sense.

The Catholic Encyclopedia also sums up the arguments quite well:

From the number and variety of the peoples mentioned in this connection some writers have inferred that the name Gog may be only a generic appellation, or figure, used in Ezechiel to designate the host of the enemies of Israel, and in the Apocalypse to denote the multitude of the foes of the Church. Others conjecture that it may be a local title expressing the royal dignity, such as the name Pharaoh in Egypt. But it seems more probable that both names are historical; and by some scholars Gog is identified with the Lydian king called by the Greeks Gyges, who appears as Gu-gu on the Assyrian inscriptions. If this be true, Magog should be identified with Lydia. On the other hand, as Mosoch and Thubal were nations belonging to Asia Minor, it would seem from the text of Ezechiel that Magog must be in that part of the world. Finally, Josephus and others identify Magog with Scythia, but in antiquity this name was used to designate vaguely any northern population.

Written by James F. Driscoll. Transcribed by Sean Hyland.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VI. Published 1909. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, September 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York


another source:


Prior to the Second World War, most atlases of the Bible would show the land of Magog to be in the northern part of the Middle East. In other words it encompassed primarily areas of Syria, Turkey, Armenia, Northern Iraq and Northern Iran. Meschech and Tubal were in what is today considered Turkey and portions of northern Syria as well as a small portion of northern Iraq.

Martin Luther held the view that Magog was Turkey. This was based in large measure upon the cities of Meshech and Tubal as being in what was then greater Turkey. Luther understood Gog and Magog as the biblical designation for the Turks. This was such an important point for him that he published his translation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 as a separate pamphlet with an introduction underscoring the connection.


Walid Shoebat points out that:

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, citing ancient Assyrian writings, places the location of Magog in the land mass between ancient Armenia and Media - in short, the Republics south of Russia and north of Israel, comprised of Azerbajian, Afghanistan, Turkestan, Chechnya, Turkey, Iran and Dagestan. Significantly, all of them are Muslim nations.

Thus, while the specific nations that comprise Magog may be partially in question, the same general area is agreed upon. We are dealing with Asia Minor, and possibly parts of central Asia – some of the southern regions of the former Soviet Union. Today, Islam dominates this entire region.

From Joel Richardson's book - AntiChrist - Islams awaited Messiah



SUMMARY


It has been shown on the basis of exegesis, hermeneutics, linguistics, and historical anthropology that, 1) Gomer cannot be Germany but rather Gimarrai, 2) Meshech cannot be Moscow but Mushki, 3) Tubal is not Tobol'sk but Tabal, 4) Gog is probably a personage, 5) Magog is unidentifiable except as a general reference ("land of Gog") to Asia Minor, 6) rosh is not a reference to a place but is to be translated "chief" or "head," and 7) the terms "north parts" and "north quarters" cannot mean Russia but, within Ezekiel's frame of reference, refer to modern Turkey.

What Ezekiel prophesied, then, is an end-time battle involving the following nations coming against Israel: 1) Turkey (Meshech, Tubal, Magog[?], Gomer, Togarmah; 2) Iran (Persia), 3) Sudan (Ethiopia or Cush), and 4) Libya.

Concerning Turkey

Precisely why Turkey (Anatolia, Asia Minor) is set forth in Ezekiel's prophecy under four names (Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah) cannot be determined. Perhaps it points to some future political break-up of that area. Perhaps it is simply to clearly specify that the entire nation or land will be involved: west (Meshech), Central (Gomer), and east (Tubal and Togarmah). (4given: Maybe Walid Shoebats book will have an answer to why it is under 4 names - as you know there are various opinions as to when Gog Magog War occurs in bible )

With Turkey, Iran, Libya and Sudan, Gog leads an Islamic coalition of nations against Israel: Turkey from the north, Iran from the east, Libya from the west and Sudan from the south.

The following maps are in the archives of the University of Melbourne from 1614. Also notice that the peoples of Magog, Tubal and Gomer who migrated to Turkey were originally from Assyria.
















Also


Ezekiel 27 v 12 and 13
Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all [kind of] riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market.



This shows that Meshech and Tubal were nations that existed back then, in the 6th Century BC. Therefore they cannot possibly refer to Moscow and Tobolsk which were not founded until many centuries later.

Moscow was founded in 1147 AD, and Tobolsk was founded in 1587 AD.

Lets read what others have to say about the matter:

John Gill - "Meshech and Tubal were the brethren of Magog, and sons of Japheth, Genesis 10:2, whose posterity inhabited those countries called after their name; who, according to Josephus, are the Cappadocians and Iberians; and among the former is a place called Mazaca, which has some affinity with Meshech; and there was a country called Gogarene, a part of Iberia. According to Bochart, these are the Moschi and the Tybarenes, people that dwell near the Euxine Sea, and under the dominion of the Turk; wherefore the Grand Turk may be called the chief prince of them."

Gary Demar, in "Last Days Madness:" "Edwin M. Yamauchi, noted Christian historian and archeologist, writes that rosh ‘can have nothing to do with modern Russia,’ and ‘all informed references and studies acknowledge that the association with Moscow and Tobolsk is untenable.’"

C. Marvin pate and Calvin B. Haines, professors at Moody Bible Institute, in "Doomsday Delusions:" "However, the identifications of Meshech and Tubal are not in doubt. Few scholars today equate them with Moscow and Tobolsk. Rather, combined ancient testimony attests to the fact that Meshech and Tubal were located in central and eastern Anatolia (Asia Minor), respectively. The foregoing arguments render the ‘Russian’ hypothesis untenable."

Chuck Missler: "‘Meshech’ and ‘Tubal’ were principal cities in ancient Anatolia, which constitutes the eastern three-fourths of modern Turkey."

Arthur Bloomfield, in "A Survey of Bible Prophecy:" "Meschech and Tubal are names of men, grandsons of Noah . . . Connecting these names with present-day Russian cities is not based on any ethnological nor etymological considerations but only on the accidental similarity of sounds."

Timothy Dailey, in "The Gathering Storm:" "It must first be noted that any connection of Tubal with the Russian city of Tobolsk is completely specious. . . . The Assyrian cuneiform texts clearly locate Muskku and Tabal in central and eastern Anatolia."

Richard Abanes, in "End Times Visions:" "Greek historian Herodotus identified Meshech and Tubal as the Moschoi and Tiberenoi tribes who lived in central and eastern Anatolia between the 11th and 6th Centuries before Christ."

Fred Zaspel: "Meshech (MSK) is often mistaken for the modern Russian city of Moscow. . . Again, this identification, as even Ryrie admits, is unfounded also. . . Mushki (MSK) of central and western Asia Minor . . . fits very well. These people were well known to Ezekiel."